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4:44 pm
July 15, 2011

GourmetPens

Austin, Texas

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Does anyone make their own raw diets for their cats? Do you follow a particular recipe?

Come share my affections for cats and stationery at http://www.gourmetpens.com!

12:46 pm
July 30, 2011

Jenny

Kansas City

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We are going to be following this raw cat food recipe from Lisa Pierson, DVM from catinfo.org. There are other ones out there – did you happen to read that interview I did with Pat McKay? She's got quite a few recipes on her website too.

6:20 pm
August 1, 2011

raglvr

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Advising Clients Who Feed Raw Diets to Pets

….NAVC clinician's brief…..november.2005

Rebecca L. Remillard, PhD, DVM, Diplomate ACVN, MSPCA Angell Animal Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts

Food safety and nutritional integrity of raw meat or eggs are two important health issues that should concern veterinarians with clients who feed these items to the family pet. This article addresses food safety, because it is the more immediate health threat.

Microbial Contamination
Food is contaminated with microbes. Meat from healthy animals becomes contaminated at slaughter. Meat surfaces become infected with microorganisms associated with food poisoning during handling, packaging, processing, storage, and transportation. Approximately one third of the poultry sold for human consumption has tested positive for Salmonella. Disinfected grade A eggs that caused salmonellosis were determined to have been contaminated during ovulation; as a result, they were contaminated with the bacteria before formation of the shell. Although many procedures have been incorporated into food processing procedures for both the meat and poultry industries to reduce the level of contamination, bacteria persist: All products should be considered contami-
nated. Raw-meat diets have been used by such industries as zoos, mink farms, and dog racing facilities; the FDA presumes these users are aware of the risks.

Thus, we should be concerned about pet owners who feed raw diets to their pets. Such diets have been documented to contain pathogenic Yersinia enterocolitica 4/0:3, Salmonella species, and Escherichia coli 0157:H7. Commercial raw products, sold frozen or freeze-dried, carry no claim to be pathogen-free; in fact, recent work strongly suggests that they are contaminated. Twenty-one com-
mercially available raw-meat diets (beef, lamb, chicken, and turkey) cultured over a 4-month period were all positive for£ coli, and 10 were positive for S. enterica. The FDA now has guidelines for companies selling such products to pet owners.
Because most pathogenic organisms are found on the surface of the meat, searing the surface would significantly reduce the potential bacterial load. An option for pet owners who do not want to feed thoroughly cooked meat is to feed whole (not ground) meat, braise the surface, and feed the meat rare instead.

Zoonotic Potential
Pets fed contaminated raw meat shed viable organisms in feces. Evidence validates this public health risk. Salmonella was isolated from 80% of the BARF (i.e., bones and raw food) diets sampled and from 30% of the stools from dogs consuming those diets. Greyhounds and sled dogs fed raw-meat diets have been documented to shed the same subspecies of Salmonella in their feces as that found in their diets. Serovars of Campylobacter species isolated from the diarrhea of dogs was the same as that isolated from the poultry carcasses consumed by the dogs. Only 36% of healthy dogs and 17% of healthy cats harbor low levels of pathogenic salmonellae, which refutes the notion that most household pets are "naturally" infected with these species.

Individuals who clean the cat's Utter box or pick up their dog's stool should consider the feces contaminated with viable pathogenic microbes. Extra precautions should be taken when persons or pets in the household have immune-suppres-sive diseases, such as human immunodeficiency virus infection, feline leukemia, or feline immunodeficiency virus infection; are undergoing chemotherapy; or are using antiinflammatory medications. Extra caution should also be exerted in households with young children to prevent fecal-oral contamination.

Handling Raw Diets
Feeding infected raw diets increases the risk for infection of both human and animal household members. Humans can become infected with food-borne pathogens when handling contaminated meat and egg products. Household transmission of food-borne pathogenic organisms from dogs to humans has been documented.
Veterinarians are trained in zoonotic diseases and thus have a responsibility to inform owners who feed raw meat or eggs of these potential health dangers. Safe practices during handling of the food, feeding dish, and feces should be emphasized, and the need for good personal hygiene must be reinforced. Veterinarians who recommend feeding raw meat or eggs without giving full disclosure of the risks and precautions may face legal ramifications. Salmonella, E. coli, and Campylobacter infection in humans are notifiable diseases, and physicians are required to report cases to local health departments.

Dispelling the Myths
The morphologic and pathophysiologic characteristics of the gastrointestinal systems of dogs, cats, and humans are remarkably similar. Many who advocate feeding raw diets contend that dogs and cats have a , more acid stomach and shorter gastrointestinal tracts than do humans, protecting them from
pathogenic bacteria. However, there is no difference among these species in regard to gastric pH and no evidence to suggest the difference in length of the gastrointestinal tract is protective to dogs and cats. All three species manifest similar clinical signs after ingesting food contaminated with pathogens. The severity of these signs is related to the dose of microbes or toxin ingested as well as the condition of the host.

Food Poisoning Frequency
Frequency of food poisoning in pets is difficult to determine. Veterinarians presented with a family pet for intermittent episodes of vomiting or diarrhea would treat the case symptomatically and are unlikely to send samples for bacterial culture and polymerase chain reaction identification. Hence, most if not all cases of food poisoning in the family pet are not reported because of a low level of suspicion and financial constraints.
Raw-meat advocates do not deny but downplay the potential health risks. No scientific evidence exists that a raw diet is superior to any dry or canned pet food. As a result, this practice is associated with health risks to pet and family with no demonstrable benefit.

4:49 am
August 11, 2011

calico

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posts 18

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Jenny said:

We are going to be following this raw cat food recipe from Lisa Pierson, DVM from catinfo.org. There are other ones out there – did you happen to read that interview I did with Pat McKay? She's got quite a few recipes on her website too.

Hi Jenny,

Are you thinking about going to a raw diet for your cats. Are you concerned about the meat quality even in human meat in today's market? Just wondering. Also is anyone on this forum currently feeding raw and if so how is it going?

Thanks for listening.

2:52 pm
August 15, 2011

Rebecca

Calgary AB

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posts 36

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I feed raw prey model base on http://www.rawfedcats.org/nature.htm

Basically I just purchase good old meat from the grocery store. I wish I could afford grass fed and organic, but I can't afford that for myself. I make sure that it is not enhanced or seasoned. I do supplement with canned just in case as my older raggies don't like organ meat (liver, kidney etc). the newest editions will eat anything and I am hoping to keep it that way.

9:51 pm
August 15, 2011

GourmetPens

Austin, Texas

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posts 37

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Fascinating! That's really neat. No matter how much I read, and I keep seeing percentages of bones/meat/organs and all that, I can just never quite figure it out. Percentages are great but… I'm terrible at math and it just confuses me. I'm just trying to figure out how to feed them raw in the right proportions. I'm so bad at this. And I just can't figure out to save my life what kinds of supplements to add, in what quantities, etc. Again, I've read several sites about it but it's all just too confusing. Does anyone know of a site that's just basic: X grams of meat, X grams of organ, X grams of bone, and X grams of supplement A/B/C (whatever the supplements may be) or anything?

I'm currently transitioning them using Primal Pet Foods (http://www.primalpetfoods.com/) but it's all pre-ground and has supplements added in and such… it's quite simple really. Comes in very handy nugget shapes and I just plop a nugget in their bowls!

Come share my affections for cats and stationery at http://www.gourmetpens.com!

3:43 am
August 16, 2011

calico

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posts 18

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GourmetPens said:

Fascinating! That's really neat. No matter how much I read, and I keep seeing percentages of bones/meat/organs and all that, I can just never quite figure it out. Percentages are great but… I'm terrible at math and it just confuses me. I'm just trying to figure out how to feed them raw in the right proportions. I'm so bad at this. And I just can't figure out to save my life what kinds of supplements to add, in what quantities, etc. Again, I've read several sites about it but it's all just too confusing. Does anyone know of a site that's just basic: X grams of meat, X grams of organ, X grams of bone, and X grams of supplement A/B/C (whatever the supplements may be) or anything?

I'm currently transitioning them using Primal Pet Foods (http://www.primalpetfoods.com/) but it's all pre-ground and has supplements added in and such… it's quite simple really. Comes in very handy nugget shapes and I just plop a nugget in their bowls!

I looked at the products for cats at the primalpetfoods site. It disturbs me that in all their cat diets they add fruit, veggies, herbs, and/or plant oils. None of these are any good for cats. I don't understand why a company would add those unhealthy items into a raw mix. I know we are all trying to find what's best for our cats, yet these companies should know better and shouldn't try to confuse people who don't have time to read the research on proper cat nutrition.

4:25 am
August 16, 2011

calico

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posts 18

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Here is some information I have saved regarding raw feeding cats. It's culled from research findings, just thought some may find it interesting.

Surface putrefactive bacteria on meat (and there are NO beneficial bacteria there) DO make seriously nasty chemicals that destroy some nutrients in the cat, and which can cause salmonella, shigella and other problems as well as destroying feline antioxidants and vitamins. These are just known facts.

Surface-cooked is SAFER AND BETTER STILL.
There's nothing any raw-food hype-addict can do to change those proven and known facts.
Meat is NOT sterile. The surface bacteria ARE there and come from feces and are NOT safe.
So cooking the SURFACE at least – will make the raw meat safe.

Cooking the inside as well, will make almost zero difference. Raw meat is very slightly easier to digest than cooked, but the nutritional value is the same.

You will hear nonsense about it – stories about enzymes from people who had no schooling in these matters.
Raw meat has NO good enzymes.
The only enzymes on raw meat are bad ones made by putrefactive bacteria on the surface of "fresh" meat. The older it gets the more the bacteria eat into the meat.
These are the fecal bacteria who have sat there making toxic enzymes that sit on the surface of the raw meat. This is researched fact, not theory .

But of course, wearing blinkers about the facts, is a personal choice of all "raw food groups" – none of whom are research based.

Hot weather is all the more reason to cook the meat surface before giving it to your cats. The rate at which putrefactive bacteria grow in hot weather is to double every 13 minutes, spewing toxins all the while.

You should cook the meat surface for sure to keep it from being contaminated badly very fast, and making the cat ill. Really, this raw-maina – is especially dangerous in hot weather.
Or use canned fish/meat for human consumption. Try to feed every 3 hours but not leave meat out in hot weather, use dry high protein as needed when you can not feed often. If cats have large gaps between meals, their body will break down muscle to glucose and defeat the purpose, so good dry is better than nothing.

Make sure there is lots of fresh water: Cats know how to lap water, they don't nee canned hydration if they have a good waterbowl. Just be sure the water bowl is punchbowl size so their whiskers fit into it, and full of fresh water daily. Cats are fussy about how water tastes, they have a LOT of water taste buds. It's not just wetness to them.

While the meat is frozen, most bacteria do not actually grow, but they do not die either, and many coliforms (the ones on meat from feces like E Coli) make spores that are very resistant to temperature change effects such as freezing. bacteria are not like us – they are tough!
Even if a few bacteria get frost bite crystals inside, enough to threaten life after a long freeze, only ONE has to survive to grow back into billions fast, especially in hot weather.

If frozen meat was sterile, you'd be able to put it out and it would not get bad. The opposite occurs. It gets bad FASTER than meat that was never frozen. (That is why meat departments HAVE to state whether meat was previously frozen.) That is because although the bacteria have tough cells walls and some even have spores – the meat does not have tough cell walls. Freezing will do more harm to the meat, opening up cell walls for the bacteria to go and damage as soon as it is thawed. So previously frozen meat will go bad FASTER than unfrozen meat as the surface bacteria can not only putrefy the surface but also any broken meat cells from freezing – the bacteria are there with both frozen and unfrozen meat – but the meat is harmed by freezing where the bacteria are hardly affected.

SO frozen meat served raw is much LESS safe than unfrozen raw meat.

The freezing just stops active bacterial cell division during the freezing time – it does not kill them.
But it harms the meat which lets bacteria make toxins for the cat faster.

There are some people from the raw group that do surface-cook their meat. But for the most part, people talk about how the cats have no problem with the bacteria that might be there.

It's the toxins the bacteria make that matter on a daily basis. They react with and deplete the cat's vitamins
Also – one day when the cat gets truly sick with food poisoning from the junk on meat surface, all that fanaticim about rawness (for no good reason) will evaporate :-)

Raw feeders however talk about a problem with bacteria being in ground meat and never recommend ground unless it is freshly ground.

Bacteria are bacteria.

What's true is that the more meat surface they have to grow on (as in ground meat) the more they will grow. But they do grow on ALL the meat surfaces, ground or not. And it only takes one to get a whole colony going.

Raw meat has NO good enzymes. The only foods with enzymes in them are plants.

Ask whoever says there are enzymes in meat to tell you just what enzymes they think are in meat . The only one commonly found in meat is creatinine kinase – a stress-related enzyme due to pre-slaughter stress, found in meat along with the stress hormone cortisol – neither of which is tasty or healthful when eaten!

12:55 pm
August 16, 2011

GourmetPens

Austin, Texas

Member

posts 37

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calico said:

GourmetPens said:

Fascinating! That's really neat. No matter how much I read, and I keep seeing percentages of bones/meat/organs and all that, I can just never quite figure it out. Percentages are great but… I'm terrible at math and it just confuses me. I'm just trying to figure out how to feed them raw in the right proportions. I'm so bad at this. And I just can't figure out to save my life what kinds of supplements to add, in what quantities, etc. Again, I've read several sites about it but it's all just too confusing. Does anyone know of a site that's just basic: X grams of meat, X grams of organ, X grams of bone, and X grams of supplement A/B/C (whatever the supplements may be) or anything?

I'm currently transitioning them using Primal Pet Foods (http://www.primalpetfoods.com/) but it's all pre-ground and has supplements added in and such… it's quite simple really. Comes in very handy nugget shapes and I just plop a nugget in their bowls!

I looked at the products for cats at the primalpetfoods site. It disturbs me that in all their cat diets they add fruit, veggies, herbs, and/or plant oils. None of these are any good for cats. I don't understand why a company would add those unhealthy items into a raw mix. I know we are all trying to find what's best for our cats, yet these companies should know better and shouldn't try to confuse people who don't have time to read the research on proper cat nutrition.

Thank you for sharing the info in your other post! I'm always so torn what to do. I'm still trying to figure out why a lot of companies add veggies and things to their foods. A lot of wet foods I have tried out has veggies too. I've heard different reasons like "when a cat eats the stomach of their prey, there's often grasses/fruits they have eaten". And that they munch on grass on their own and things like that. I figured it's better to feed them this stuff than dry/wet until I can figure out how to make a raw diet myself… still working on that one hehe.

Come share my affections for cats and stationery at http://www.gourmetpens.com!

3:47 am
August 17, 2011

calico

Member

posts 18

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Your first question is easy to answer. It's cheaper for companies to add veggies/fillers/plant oils to food than meat protein and then try and convince the uninformed buyer that it's good for the cats because it is good for people, digusting in my book, the almighty dollar versus our cat's health.

Grass is not digested by cats.

Cats chew grass to get folic acid. Usually means their gut bacteria are not
working as they normally make the folic acid for cats. Cats
chew greens when their gut health is in bad shape, and unfortunately
due to toxic cat foods – that is most cats, for most of the time. The
reason they chew greens, is to try to get the folic acid that their
gut bacteria should be making but are not making. They chew grass (or
whatever) to get out some folic acid. They then either vomit the
grass back out or pass it through undigested. So it is a back-up system for cats
to get folic acid, when their normal way (healthy gut) is not working
for whatever reason.

Normally, the healthy feline gut bacteria make a lot of vitamins and other essential nutrients for the cat – and for any carnivore – (especially short chain fatty acids to support organ functions and immune system, and vitamins, and plenty of folic acid in particular.)

So use grass eating as a sign they need help with their gut health.

In the wild, the gut health is maintained by eating gut contents of prey, the prey's system predigests items cat's systems can't, and by LACK of exposure to chemicals and toxins. By contrast our cats get bombarded by wrong things for gut bacteria to eat (inedible celllose, soy hulls, psyllium, or any other agricultural waste products are tossed into food as a way to make money from waste) and of course drugs (vaccines, dewormers, anti-flea products, herbs, veggies, household cleaners, flame retardants on furniture, cigarette smoke indoors, preservatives in food and supplements, and the list is endless).

11:43 pm
August 18, 2011

GourmetPens

Austin, Texas

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posts 37

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Oh man. That's frustrating. I really should just make my own stuff for them. What do you feed your cat(s)?? I assume you have cats that is! I saw Halo Pets advertising on my Twitter that there is squash/zucchini/peas/carrots in their wet foods and I was wondering… why would they want to advertise that? Sigh.

Come share my affections for cats and stationery at http://www.gourmetpens.com!

6:15 pm
August 23, 2011

Jenny

Kansas City

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posts 74

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calico said:

Jenny said:

We are going to be following this raw cat food recipe from Lisa Pierson, DVM from catinfo.org. There are other ones out there – did you happen to read that interview I did with Pat McKay? She's got quite a few recipes on her website too.

Hi Jenny,

Are you thinking about going to a raw diet for your cats. Are you concerned about the meat quality even in human meat in today's market? Just wondering. Also is anyone on this forum currently feeding raw and if so how is it going?

Thanks for listening.

6:12 am
August 25, 2011

calico

Member

posts 18

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Sorry for the delay in response. Yes, we are going to go RAW. I was concerned about the meat quality, even in human meat, but I figured it was better than the crap in canned cat food. I am going to try to buy free range and organic when I can. Otherwise, it's not perfect, but it's pretty darn close! We are very close – I just need to be prepared for the meowing that comes with our food changes (from dry to wet only was a lot of meowing!) – only 2 weeks, but when you work from home, it's a lot every day.calico said: Jenny said: We are going to be following this raw cat food recipe from Lisa Pierson, DVM from catinfo.org. There are other ones out there – did you happen to read that interview I did with Pat McKay? She's got quite a few recipes on her website too.Hi Jenny,Are you thinking about going to a raw diet for your cats. Are you concerned about the meat quality even in human meat in today's market? Just wondering. Also is anyone on this forum currently feeding raw and if so how is it going? Thanks for listening. Hi Jenny,
I don't like all the veggies in Pat McKay's recipes at all. Lisa Pierson's look better, but wouldn't use psyllium or guar gum. Both are the wrong fibers for cats. Guar gum coats the intestinal lining with a gooey substance that prevents absorption of some nutrients, and interferes with beneficial gut flora and changes the way food is processed along the gut by slowing it in the wrong way stickiness from gum).
Much better would be rice bran and pumpkin, the one veggie cat's get beta carotene from. Pure rice bran is easy to find as an additive to home prepared food.
Some others work too, but most are either not fermentable enough or are too fermentable, leading to gas indigestion problems.

I personally still worry about the surface bacteria, but I hope you have good luck trying this out. I can't afford free range and organic for myself right now so would have to feed regular grocery store meat/poultry. My compromise is to cook it and then put in blender or food processer along with the vitamin supplement, and the gut protocol I use.

6:18 am
August 25, 2011

calico

Member

posts 18

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I don't know how I screwed up but my last post got blended in with yours. Hope it is still readable.

6:02 pm
August 25, 2011

Jenny

Kansas City

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posts 74

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Do you have a printable recipe that you would recommend then?

calico said:

I don't know how I screwed up but my last post got blended in with yours. Hope it is still readable.

11:36 pm
August 25, 2011

GourmetPens

Austin, Texas

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posts 37

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Yes! I could certainly benefit from a printable recipe too :) There's so much conflicting and confusing information out there. I found this in my searches, in case anyone is interested in reading: http://www.ibdkitties.net/rawi…..tions.html

As well, another blog I follow (Pet Meadow) feeds all four of her cats raw non ground. Here's a bit of info she's posted:

http://epetmeadow.com/2009/12/…..d-choices/

and a video with her hacking up some rabbit and feeding the cats:

http://epetmeadow.com/2010/01/…..od-stuffs/

If only my cats were clever enough to feed themselves hehe

Jenny said:

Do you have a printable recipe that you would recommend then?

calico said:

I don't know how I screwed up but my last post got blended in with yours. Hope it is still readable.

Come share my affections for cats and stationery at http://www.gourmetpens.com!

10:29 am
September 2, 2011

Jenny

Kansas City

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posts 74

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I love that blog! Thanks for sharing. I contacted her for an interview. I don't know what it is about raw that is keeping me from just going for it – it's annoying because I think about it every time I give them canned food. NEED TO DO IT and stop talking about it. Ugh.

GourmetPens said:

Yes! I could certainly benefit from a printable recipe too :) There's so much conflicting and confusing information out there. I found this in my searches, in case anyone is interested in reading: http://www.ibdkitties.net/rawi…..tions.html

As well, another blog I follow (Pet Meadow) feeds all four of her cats raw non ground. Here's a bit of info she's posted:

http://epetmeadow.com/2009/12/…..d-choices/

and a video with her hacking up some rabbit and feeding the cats:

http://epetmeadow.com/2010/01/…..od-stuffs/

If only my cats were clever enough to feed themselves hehe

Jenny said:

Do you have a printable recipe that you would recommend then?

calico said:

I don't know how I screwed up but my last post got blended in with yours. Hope it is still readable.

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